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Thread: New mixed class "Racing formula 100R"

  1. #1
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    Default New mixed class "Racing formula 100R"

    Id like to introduce an idea that ClaudioD has been thinking about for a while following his observation that RC sailing classes are thinning out which also makes it also difficult for new modern classes like IACC 120 to make any headway in Europe or the U.S. and we would like your opinion on an idea ?

    Basically, the concept is to introduce a mixed class rating formula (similar to large boats) that would allow different RC sailing classes to come together & sail competitively against each other using a basic rating. Its a concept and not too far from the old 10R just redefined to increase the scope to allow different RC sailing boats to fit into the formula.

    The initial idea is to have different boats in the 110-130 cm LOA length range, to be able to compete together with a simple formula! Not to mention more guys with common passion, having a beer together at end of the day. One could also allow for new boat designs developments later if worthwhile.

    Claudio has called it 100R so those old school sailors familiar with the 10R formula can identify its origins.

    Click image for larger version

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    The formula (open for discussion) works as follows:

    [ LWL(cm) x SA(cm)] / 8000 = 100 (metric system) with examples of how it would work.

    Class M: 125cm x 6400cm / 8000 = 100.00 here normally the max SA should be 7200cm for rig A, but bulbs and weights are free.

    AC 120: 100cm x 8000cm / 8000 = 100.00 would be the maximum allowed but with FIN/BULB of 3000g out of 4500g minimum weight - most of the time would sail with 7800cm

    Comparing these two examples, the class M will have smaller sail area (noting that this class uses already 6 different rigs) and would benefit from its longer LWL against a AC 120 that would benefit from max SA that would be offset by its shorter LWL and keel/bulb weight which are governed by the boats own class rules.

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    The formula works together with basic box rule where ANY class boat that fits within the dimensions of 275 cm x 130 cm. would eligible for racing. The box is split into two parameters to define the only rules with maximum limit for the mast height (200 cm) and the max draft (72cm) from the deck line. Sail rigs maximum 2 ... everything else totally free !

    It is just a concept open to discussion at this stage, the formula can be modified (I'm sure Claudio is fine tuning it now) to ensure widest range of class fit fairly into the formula.

    Would really appreciate your comments and/or suggestions if in your opinion there would be interest using this mixed class using racing formula 100R ?

    Cheers Alan
    You can only create, what you can imagine

  2. #2
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    Default Re: New mixed class "Racing formula 100R"

    I think this is going in the wrong direction. The problem is not that 'classes are thinning out'. The problem is 'too many classes', fragmenting the sport. And now a suggestion of one more class.

    The other problem is that the format you suggest gives the win to the boat that fits the conditions of the day. . .a windy day and the long boat/smaller sail wins. . . a light day and the shorter boat/bigger sail wins. So it is the conditions that determine the winner and not the skill of the sailor.

    A major factor in the reduced popularity of the M and 10R (in my opinion) was the lack of a max draft spec in the class rules. That allowed boats to gain stability with a very deep fin and lighter ballast. The downside of that is that those boats cannot sail on many ponds due to lack of water depth. To be competitive you had to go that route, but many dropped out and switched to other classes to be able to sail on the available sites.

    John
    John Ball
    CRYA #895
    IOM CAN 307 V8

  3. #3
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    Default Re: New mixed class "Racing formula 100R"

    I John,

    In my opinion and many class M sailors says the same thing, the loss of interest on Class M is mainly due to economic costs . At the time when this class was very famous, the prices started to grows unreasonably and was no rare to spend 4800/5000€ for a complete M with 6 rigs.
    At that cost level most of modelers could not afford anymore and turned to some others models like IOM being reasonably cheaper. Today also the IOM are getting expensives and modelers turns to RG65. If the RG65 would become expensive, the Footy are ready too.
    An interesting point is to check the Class member subscriptions trend at National level in the last 5 years !

    Most of the experimented sailors never use 66cm long Fin simply because the increased Wet Surface was a serious handicap in terms of wet area.
    My Class M are satisfied with 54cm and less, including bulb, from the hull bottom when the gain on wet area is reduced by about 240cm .
    Certainly pond deep and weeds are a problem , but avoided with better choices including sea side.

    The above formula is initially developed to permit two or more classes to race together and getting more boats in the water at once !

    In the specific case we told that class M could race with the AC120, thats all !


    The 100R is now adjusted to use the LOA instead of LWL since more simpler and read as :

    ( LOA x SA ) / 9000 = 100

    This experiment was already carried out in Italy with another formula a little bit more complicated where Beam and Wights were included.

    This formula was called "SAFALERO RATING"

    [(SA + LOA - Beam ) x 0.2 ] - ( Pb + Ps ) / ( Pb - Ps ) = 31 <> 34 and probably better if limited to 32<>33

    where
    SA = Sail Area in dm
    Beam = max deck in cm
    Pb = Bulb weight in kg
    Ps = Boat weight without Fin/ Bulb

    Cheers
    ClaudioD
    Last edited by claudio; 02-07-2012 at 11:43 AM.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: New mixed class "Racing formula 100R"

    Both international M and 10R's have max depth limits. They are quite deep and there are ponds that will not support racing at max depth. US M class does not have a max depth, but once you get beyond the international M limit you are in an area of minimal returns.

    Personally I would not measure depth of the keel from the deck. Much easier to measure from the bottom of the hull.

    What I think would really help a class grow would be having a limit on the amount of ballast ratio. Most classes dont have such a rule and are thus chasing lighter hulls, deeper keels to get better performance. It would be better to set this at the start to avoid an arms race. Possibly set a balance point on the keel, ie set the keel/boat on a block and see if it tips off. If it does, add weight to the hull until it doesnt.
    Another thing would be to limit the fin thickness to 6 or 8% to allow easier home building. IOM's did not do this and now are using 4% foils which need to be made out of CNC cut molds to be competitive.
    Jfisher
    Star 45 national champ 09,10 Star # 842
    Julie Ayers Winner 08
    10R national champ 07 10R #12
    RG-65 #577
    M #3718

  5. #5
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    Default Re: New mixed class "Racing formula 100R"

    Quote Originally Posted by hiljoball View Post
    I think this is going in the wrong direction. The problem is not that 'classes are thinning out'. The problem is 'too many classes', fragmenting the sport. And now a suggestion of one more class.
    Hi John,

    No suggestion for new class at all, as you say classes are fragmenting, using a rating formula (as big boats do) the idea is to help bring some of those fragments, without changing the boats original class rules so they can compete together as closely as possible.

    Getting the formula as close of possible is the ultimate goal, if possible ...any suggestions ?

    Cheers Alan
    You can only create, what you can imagine

  6. #6
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    Default Re: New mixed class "Racing formula 100R"

    Slotracer,

    The 'Basic Idea' is to put together differents classes for racing and get more fun .

    I tend to agree with some points you mention and will be good idea if every one interested could offer his idea and figures !

    Could you please propose a Rating Formula or common parameters of existing classes, where boats of LOA from 110 cm to 130cm could race together ?

    I'm ready to change my BOX Rules to reduce Fin/Bulb Lenght to 48cm for instance from hull bottom and the total mast height being at 200 cm.
    Good idea to limit the fin thickness to 8mm minimum and 10mm minimum for the rudder.

    A parameter, most of the times negletted is the Bulb/Boat Ratio. This figure give the idea about lateral stability.
    A good design figure should be above 65% and better if above 70%. America Cup Boats go up to 83% , class M are around 72% and RG65 are often at 65%.

    Racing for the highest bulb weight can be discouraged by the total weight that the sails can push, It may be possible to introduce the minimum total weight to 4200g and max Sail Area to 7500cm and using the BOX as Rules

    Cheers
    ClaudioD

    PS : BOX Rules Changed

    Last edited by claudio; 02-07-2012 at 01:35 PM. Reason: added drawing

  7. #7
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    Default Re: New mixed class "Racing formula 100R"

    All I was suggesting is to get more boats is to fix the ratio so that there is no need to make super light hulls. There are lots of older M's that are heavier and by limiting the righting moment they have the potential to be more competitive. More like the IOM where you have to have a set bulb fin weight. Although that has become misplaced as well since now you can add corrector weights down low, so it is an advantage to have a light hull and add corrector weights. Should have had to add the correctors at the top of the deck.

    As I have several 10R's and M's all of which would not qualify I dont really have much interest in another class. Just adding my $.02 on where I see other classes going wrong and fueling an arms race.

    [QUOTE=claudio;63053]Slotracer,

    The 'Basic Idea' is to put together differents classes for racing and get more fun .

    I tend to agree with some points you mention and will be good idea if every one interested could offer his idea and figures !

    A parameter, most of the times negletted is the Bulb/Boat Ratio. This figure give the idea about lateral stability.
    A good design figure should be above 65% and better if above 70%. America Cup Boats go up to 83% , class M are around 72% and RG65 are often at 65%.

    Racing for the highest bulb weight can be discouraged by the total weight that the sails can push, It may be possible to introduce the minimum total weight to 4200g and max Sail Area to 7500cm and using the BOX as Rules

  8. #8
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    Default Re: New mixed class "Racing formula 100R"

    If one were to do a search, I had/have offered several times to create a Portsmouth rating for class or size of boats. Unfortunately - in order to handicap, one needs some accurate, reliable data on the performance of class, the wind strength (measured) and the finishing time of first/last boat in order to even start a set of handicap numbers. Unfortunately, it wound up as all talk and no action - since each class would have had to record several regatta results (too much work) so just like the "Speed Trials" often discussed - that is all that has happened - just discussion (with exception of the Footy Class) who actually put together a good model for speed times. Won't work too well for larger boats needing longer courses.

    Some of these discussions went back as far as late 1990's and early 2000. Just an FYI for those looking to reinvent the wheel. Is an IOM really faster than a US1Meter? Is a 36/600 faster than a CR914 ? M class vs. 10 R ? How about an M/10R vs. a Mini40/F48 multihull? How competitive is the new crop of "plastic boats" - and who tracks modifications, when even the classes themselves have trouble having/measuring/checking rules?

    A few thoughts - good luck coming up with answers that everyone will buy into. Cheers.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: New mixed class "Racing formula 100R"

    Hi Dick,

    The below Safalero Formula is indeed an "Handicap" Rating Rule used in Italy until some years ago for models of the America Cup in scale 1:20 :

    .........................

    At that time, models with differents Sail Areas, Beams, Overall Lenghts and Weights could race together since each boat was Certified with an "Handicap Rating".

    The Handicap was limited within rating from 31 to 34.
    Personally I would like to widen the range from 31 to 35

    Some calculations can be made to prove the consistency.

    One example : .................................................. ........GENERAL Specifcations

    Boat LOA 120cm max
    Bmax 18cm .................................................. ...........( range 16 to 25 cm )
    BF 3.00kg .................................................. ............(range 2.90. to 3.10 kg )
    HR 1.30kg .................................................. ............(Free)
    SA 78.0 dm............................................... .............(Rig 1 72dm to 80 dm and Rig 2 66 to 72 dm)
    BF+HR............................................. .......................(minimum 4.00 kg)
    Draft .................................................. ...................(48cm max from hull bottom)
    Mast height............................................ .................(175.0cm)
    Fin thickness......................................... ...................(8% min.)
    Rudder............................................ ........................(10% min.)


    Rating with above parameters : [(120 + 78 - 18) x 0.2)] - (3.00 + 1.30) / (3.00 / 1.30) = 34.14

    by reducing the SA to 75dm we get a lower Rating as :

    ............................................ [(120 + 75 - 18) x 0.2)] - (3.00 + 1.30) / (3.00 / 1.30) = 33.54


    Cheers
    Claudio
    Last edited by claudio; 02-08-2012 at 07:38 AM.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: New mixed class "Racing formula 100R"

    what about a PHRF rating of some sort... or the Portsmought yardstick or the IRC, IMS, or ORC

    the hard part will be determining the rating. obviously for a one design class it would be much easier. for a developmental class, you would have to take an "average" rating of some of the boats. or have a formula...

    the hard part again. how to determine the handicap...
    Marc

    S1M 1981
    Victoria 81
    RG65 181
    IOM 81, 681, 881

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