+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 7 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 65

Thread: 34th America’s Cup Design - Mono or Multi Hull ?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Gulf Harbour, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,242

    Default 34th America’s Cup Design - Mono or Multi Hull ?

    The next stage of boat design concept breifing for the 34th Americas Cup was released today:

    Target Features:

    Option of Monohull & Multihull: High-performance and close racing, Light to strong wind range capability, Ease of shipping & transportation, 22m max overall Length

    Monohull :
    1.0 x wind speed upwind performance
    1.4 x wind speed downwind performance
    Narrow displacement range
    Combination of bow and twin rudders allowed
    Bowsprit
    Unlimited gennaker area
    13 crew


    Multihull :
    1.2 x wind speed upwind performance
    1.6 x wind speed downwind performance
    Displacement 4000-4200kg
    Up to four moveable appendages
    Wing sails permitted
    Demountable assembly
    12 crew (11 sailors crew plus observer)

    http://www.cupinfo.com/en/ggyc-press...igns-10023.php you can read the detail pdf concept for mono and multi hulls near the bottom of the page ....very interesting stuff

    Cheers Alan

  2. #2

    Default Re: 34th America’s Cup Design - Mono or Multi Hull ?

    Righty-o!

    Purely on a selfish opinion I'd want multi's.
    - Loads of untried ideas and room for development and original input.
    - Not to mention the high load/high breakage rate that keeps us in work!

    But - I feel that Multi's go against the 'spirit' of the Cup and, could in the long run cause more harm then good...

    Traditions are a part of the game and Sponsors will have a hard time coughing up for an untested platform.
    I guess the progression could be a bit to severe to invest the 50 - 100 million required.
    Its interesting how there are only two options... given that a third option, a fixed keel boat isn't included.
    If you have ever sailed on a Volvo 70 ( I Have) - you will know that these things are not meant for short course racing.... They are hard work to tack and you wouldn't engage in a tacking duel in one, EVER! ( Which is pretty exciting to watch BTW)
    It makes me ask - Do Oracle secretly want to go multi?.... I have a hunch they do.

    Just my 0.01€'s worth anyhow... Jim.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Minnesota USA
    Posts
    3,811

    Default Re: 34th America’s Cup Design - Mono or Multi Hull ?

    Jim -

    I must disagree on a couple of your items in post.

    1. "Spirit" of the cup kind of went out the door when New Zealand tried the monster monohull/countered by Conner's Stars & Stripes wingsail cat back in the 1980's.
    2. All a team needs to do is "tie" itself to a proven designer/build/program. There in Europe, multihull racing is about 12 steps (or more) ahead of multihull sponsorship than here in the U.S. I have a feeling guys like Nigel Irens, Melvin/Morrelli, and probably a few new guys sitting in the winds (Maarstom perhaps?) might make an impact in new ideas - simply based on the "Around the World" boats. After all - those are designed for a variety of wind/waves, different points of sail, and seem to find a bunch of sponsors standing in line to tie in with a possible winner. To me (personal opinion) anything that can make it around the world - multi or mono - is the type of boat and crew that should be in the competition. If not, just drag out some old 1970's designs of "anything" hang a carbon rig and new sails on it, and pass it off as "exciting".

    I think the biggest problem was the way-to-short recent event - (2 out of 3 ???) which more or less ignored the many of us who enjoy "speed" as being a part of racing. I know I don't endear myself with those who just "love" watching ponderous, slow, monohulls that only race in the "right" conditions.

    So change the format of the event -
    Limit multihulls to 40 feet - there are a bunch of them out there already.
    Allow more competitors to enter/race without having to own a bank.
    A year of fleet racing around the globe - China, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, France/Spain, Germany, Britain, South America (Brazil/Argentina/Chile) the US - east and west coasts plus perhaps a Great Lakes event (Chicago) and Vancouver/Northwest
    Say there are twelve entries for a fleet.
    After fleet racing, the boats are already sequenced for eliminations in match type racing - perhaps two weeks at the "Cup Site" and first place races 12th. Place, 2nd. Place races 11th. Place, etc.
    With the bracket winners winding up against each other in the best of seven (suggestion)

    If a sponsor knows they will have that kind of exposure, in that many places, both sponsors and media will line up to bring the races to TV - and meanwhile think of the gambling opportunities for those who decide to set up a wager system for all races, individual races, etc.

  4. #4

    Default Re: 34th America’s Cup Design - Mono or Multi Hull ?

    Hi Dick,

    Blimey..I'm getting good value for 0.01€ !

    Unfortunately I do not have the time to pick holes in your proposal as I am too busy with the people already in the industry - I'm sorry to say.
    Just to highlight the complexity of the situation, everyone should be aware that I saw first hand the filming of the Extreme 40's today had to be canned in 20+knts.
    It seemed that trying to film any usable footage was impossible.
    Doing that in 25 -30 knts with a good fetch will be an amazing feat from a Rib, be it Mono or Multi.
    The idea looks good on paper, but get out on a boat and nature soon cuts you down to size.
    This is not F1...
    The variables are immense.
    For a comparison, perhaps it would be like nature toying with gravity and changing every other corner as the cars are going round the track...?!...

    As far as 'Spirit"goes.. Why on earth would try and deny that this has a special heritage.... flippant comment!
    Nuff said.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Minnesota USA
    Posts
    3,811

    Default Re: 34th America’s Cup Design - Mono or Multi Hull ?

    I did not suggest Extreme 40's ( extreme ???) - only the size. Use Formula 40 if you want as a "size" - and go from there.

    Again - I suggested boats that could complete in all weather - and conditions. If the "purists" persist in want to control the winds, waves, temperatures, number of crew, size of stick, how many bottle of Evian water are on board, and play the silly "parlor" games to keep the "spirit" - by all means, line up, plunk down more money that the GNP of some nations, and enjoy the "bob about" mentality that has turned "ocean racers" into "pond boats". Those same "purists" (self-named) are then the ones who can squeeze every dime out of the event - making it strictly a money-based/money-making effort.

    As an example - I would forgo any involvement in the America's Cup and just focus/support "TRUE" sailing with the "LITTLE" America's Cup (C Class Championships now) and even they will only race in the "proper" conditions. While it doesn't line up with my ideas of such a "spiritual" event - I am /and recognize, those currently playing are what I would easily identify as "Amateur" sailors. At least they sail because they want to - no one has to pay them to race.

    Sorry - but when the 12 Meter class died as the boat of choice - so did the America's Cup (at least for me) - while for others, when the J Boats went away, so did the "spirit" of the event. It has now become simply a money-hungry machine.

    As for filming, tell the AB Amro boats about video footage taken from their last go-around in extreme conditions. Your issue of using an RIB to get Extreme 40 photos in heavy air, is like trying to keep up and photograph an F-16 from a propeller driven fixed wing aircraft.......which would be similar to your F1 comparison, perhaps.

    Sorry - I think the "Genie" is now out of the bottle - and my bet is the ad agencies for potential sponsors will dictate what hits the water next. Again, I might be wrong, but I wouldlay money on another multihull event.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Gulf Harbour, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,242

    Default Re: 34th America’s Cup Design - Mono or Multi Hull ?

    Ok Jim I will raise your 0.01€ to 0.02€

    I have the impression both concepts will miss the sweet spot.

    They're saying the rule should ensure close racing while being able to sail in a wide range of conditions...tough call for both concepts !

    High performance light displacement mono's will certainly have speed as will winged sails on multis but as you say, canting keel mono hulls are not ideal for close short course tacking duels let alone in dail up, but neither are multi's for that matter.

    Which type of boat is best for racing and media impact is the major part of the evaluations, if I understand it correctly?....in my opinion, one objective needs to take priorty over the other otherwise it's like holding a candle which is burning from both ends ... fingers will get burnt ! Like you I go with the fixed keel mono also.

    Which ever way the decision favours the ultimate challenge will be to design & build these babies by the sailing teams ... and you will be a busy beaver :-)

    Cheers Alan
    You can only create, what you can imagine

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Minnesota USA
    Posts
    3,811

    Default Re: 34th America’s Cup Design - Mono or Multi Hull ?

    Hi Alan -

    if the desire is to "ensure close racing" - it will require a one-design (or very limited development) set of rules. I agree that canting keels are long-distance runners (usually) and unless engines are allowed for canting the keel, a fixed keel make more sense (plus less things to go wrong) for short course racing - unless they are mandatory - putting all teams back to a level playing field.

    Why are "tacking duels" a requirement? It is because that is probably the one sure way to stay ahead of a competitor - is it because it adds "excitement" - or is it simply a "carry-over" from the old days? If tacking is what you want, maybe I should have kept my old Laser from college days? Ummm - maybe not. The big egos would be lost among all the other boats "normal" people could afford. Perhaps "this" is what transforms the event - none of us mere mortals could afford one of the "CUP" boats.

    Unless you guys have never witnessed a large one design fleet of multi-hulls ---- or even a limited development class such as the Formula 18 cats, I would submit there are the same amount of tactics (just different ones) as used on monohulls. At the end of a large fleet race of multihulls of similar design/size it is surprising how close racing can be - with the nod given to someone who manages a good wind shift, a well executed tack, smart downwind tactics, ......... oh oh ---- starting to sound like a monohull race (sorta).

    Heck - even the "A" Class cats which are largely developmental have recently entered the "world of curved daggerboards" - and a lot of the big, around-the-world ocean surfers have been using them for a few years. Maybe both are not as extreme as those used in the recent cup, but the ideas are not new - just further developed.

    As for media interest which seems to be a primary focus - large sails, speed, seeing a sailboat almost tip over (for non-racers seeing a cat or tri on a single hull for first time) helicopter (not RIBS) trying to keep up with the racers, deck shots with water over the crew/deck from wind and waves, and interesting skipper interviews of "young" people - not old codgers with too much money to spend, are what draw viewers - and hence sponsorship advertising dollars.

    Here a local bar often runs a video of one of the Amro boats doing an around the world race - and it is one of the few things that when it comes on, pulls folks away from baseball, basketball, college games, or other professional sports on the other TVs. Why? - it's the action, of course. Listening in to some of the comments of non-sailors is fun. The biggest issue - mono or multi - is too long of courses - they aren't in an arena, bowl, or stadium. The "product" (i.e. boat) needs to be unique. Virtually "everyone" has seen photos or video of monohulls draped with human ballast hanging over the windward rail, pounding to windward. Few folks see multihulls of the size raced, let alone able to comprehend how "that airplane wing-thing" manages to make the boat go. Add in the sheer size, the speed as the RIBS try to keep up, and the fact that at any moment the multi might tip over and it seems clear what (at least I think) would draw crowd interest - but I also keep in mind, this is sailing - only a step away from bowling, golf, or other high action sports.

    Ahhhh - -only speculation and opinion right now ----but will be fun to look back in 20/20 hindsight and see what transpires. I'll cross my fingers for the multis -


    Cheers

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Gulf Harbour, New Zealand
    Posts
    1,242

    Default Re: 34th America’s Cup Design - Mono or Multi Hull ?

    Hi Dick, I had a tornado for couple of seasons (many, many moons ago) and that was damn exciting set of sticks with sails, but I spend more time in the water than sailing it. Must admit have not witnessed large multi's close racing but I would love to see Godzillas in the fresh, I'm in awe how they look so graceful at speed ...

    Personally I love the excitement of the V70's ...this is sailing porngraphy ...has got to be the most exciting experience you can ever have

    Man that gets my heart pumping....lucky bastards !!!!

    Anyway back to reality, all us arm chair experts (tongue in cheek) can speculate until the cows come home, I for one have all the faith in the professionals, they will find the right solution to re-capture public attention and come up with a competitive formula to satisfy all the teams & the media.

    In the mean time those of us with dollar budgets and penny salaries will be waiting with baited breath ready to build the new formula in RC versions. Then we will debate how unffordable they are for weekend hobby builders... if we make them too light :-)

    Honey what do reckon if we trade-in the kids in, sell the house and the cars give up our mandane jobs and buy a V 70 !! ... no no honey, I don't mean the 4 wheel version ... woman !!!

    Cheers Alan
    You can only create, what you can imagine

  9. #9

    Default Re: 34th America’s Cup Design - Mono or Multi Hull ?


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Minnesota USA
    Posts
    3,811

    Default Re: 34th America’s Cup Design - Mono or Multi Hull ?

    Click image for larger version

Name:	SunsetFloat.jpg
Views:	183
Size:	700.8 KB
ID:	6165 Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_7559.jpg
Views:	166
Size:	767.4 KB
ID:	6167 Click image for larger version

Name:	MichelobBoatLand.jpg
Views:	165
Size:	65.0 KB
ID:	6168

    Hi Alan -

    yes, it is definitely the budgets that keep us at home/on the beach. A very good friend (and r/c multihull enthusiast) sent me the Oracle photo during the event. I've not seen it anywhere else - but just sitting still I can get pretty out-of-breath from excitement. This has got to be one of the prettiest (non-racing/sailing) photos taken of the Oracle trimaran. Thought I would share now that the event is over - but not sure who to acknowledge for copyright.

    He now has his hands full trying to fix the "oooops" on their Canada's entry for the C Class championship. Photo is of their primary boat (seconday one was also damaged) as they tried to get ashore during a "bit of wind". I thik the event starts next week so hope tehy got this one fixed in time.

    Enjoy............... the last one is my old boat that I used to race.

+ Reply to Thread

Similar Threads

  1. For the Multi-hull supporters
    By Millrtme in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-25-2009, 12:18 PM
  2. Multi hull RG65
    By haegar in forum New Classes
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-24-2008, 09:09 PM
  3. New Hull Design
    By Dick Lemke in forum General Discussions (MultiHull/MultiOne)
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-10-2005, 05:44 PM
  4. design an hull
    By cougar in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 09-09-2004, 11:05 AM
  5. Multi vs. Mono: more HEAT
    By lorsail in forum General Discussion
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-18-2003, 06:12 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts